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mchrisand1
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• Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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• Registered on 12/12/2012 |
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• 9 posts |
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 Posted:12/20/2012 17:24 |
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Hello,
I've re-posted this as a new thread after discovered some important details that should help significantly toward solving my problem. I've just relocated from PHX, AZ to SLC, UT and since it's December it's rarely above 35-40 deg F this time of year. As a result, my cold-weather starting problem occurs daily now, even multiple times each day if the car sits for 3+ hours. When the temperature was warm (in sunny PHX) I never had a problem starting the car (04 Crown Vic P71, 160K miles) which I purchased Oct 2012. Every time I turned the key they starter would crank and my 4.6L engine fired up immediately.
Once the ambient temperature (ie: temp outside the vehicle) dropped below approx 40 deg F, the car would crank without any problems but would NOT fire. I would try to start the car from 5-15 minutes and eventually it would usually start. Once or twice I had to wait several hours until the ambient temp was higher, like in the afternoon. After much experimentation, I discovered a consistent relationship between the light sequence on the instrument cluster and whether the car would give me a short start (crank & immediate fire) vs. no start or long start (crank/no fire or extended crank then fire). After much stumbling around through trial & error, I've discovered (in cold weather) if I turn the key to "ON", but stop short of attempting to start the car, I always get 1 of 2 light sequences, which I'll define as L/S #1 & L/S #2 (see below for details). The car WILL NOT start if I get "L/S #1", the car WILL start if I get "L/S #2".
L/S #1 (car cranks indefinitely but WILL NOT start if only the following lights up in "ON" position)
-Low-Fuel light (briefly ON then turns OFF)
-Check Engine (ON-stays lit) **this light is ALWAYS on while driving and I believe it's likely an emissions system failure/issue and feel it's unrelated to the starting problem since the car has started without issues while this light has been on (unfortunately I don't have the diagnostic code yet)
L/S #2 (car WILL crank and fire almost immediately if the following lights up):
-Low-Fuel (briefly ON then OFF)
-Battery (On-stays ON)
-Check Engine (ON-stays ON)
-Check Fuel Cap (ON-stays ON)
I've consistently been succesfull in somehow getting L/S #1 to "change" to L/S #2 by turning the key to "ON" and letting it sit anywhere from 30 sec to 5 mins. I've also learned the length of time req'd for key to remain in "ON" in order to get to L/S #2 from L/S #1 seems 100% a function of how cold ambient air is...the colder outside the longer key has to sit in "ON". Example, today is was 20 deg F and I had to leave the key in "ON" for at least 5 mins. Last week it was closer to the low 40's and I got to L/S #2 after key was in "ON" for
MichaelC
Phoenix, AZ
"light 'em up"
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Posted:12/21/2012 07:53 |
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Okay so number one get a new fuel cap. If that ever comes on you need a new one if the fuel system is not pressurized correctly it can cause a multitude of issues. Plus they are cheap and could be your CE light.
Number 2 pull the codes. The way you describe the issue it sounds like we have a sensor that has to warm up, once you have power on long enough it warms up, hopefully the codes will point you in the right direction.
The light sequences do look like they are telling you something it's just a question of what. |
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mchrisand1
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• Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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• Registered on 12/12/2012 |
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• 9 posts |
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Posted:12/21/2012 17:39 |
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Hello curemode2002
Thanks for the reply, I'm heading to the auto parts store right after I post this for a new gas cap. While I'm there I'll see if I can get the codes from the C/E light as well.
I agree with your diagnosis re: a sensor problem - hopefully the c/e code will help pinpoint which sensor.
BTW, we're neighbors....I haven't updated my profile, but I just relo'd from PHX to Bountiful, UT...so I'm just a few mins north of you up I-15.
Are you a mechanic?
MichaelC
Phoenix, AZ
"light 'em up"
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mchrisand1
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• Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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• Registered on 12/12/2012 |
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• 9 posts |
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Posted:12/22/2012 02:22 |
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OK,
I replaced the gas tank cap earlier tonight, unfortunately it had no effect. The "check gas cap" light still comes on (along with all the other lights on the left side of the instrument cluster) when the car is able to start.
I have a couple codes the C/E light is kicking out. This was from the diagnostic device used by the guy at O'reilly Auto Parts. The codes are: p0171 & p0174, which are defined "system adaptive fuel too lean bank 1 (0171) ...and bank 2 (0174).
The printout given to me for these codes includes about a dozen potential causes and 3 dozen possible solutions. Almost every cause has one thing in common, an air leak somewhere. Both lists start off with the same suspected cause, which is an air leak somewhere in the air induction system after the MAF sensor. I suppose that's a good place to begin troubleshooting. As I've researched posts on other websites by people experiencing cold weather start problems with their car,the MAF sensor is often suspected.
I will take a look at it this weekend and post what I discover.
MichaelC
Phoenix, AZ
"light 'em up"
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Posted:12/23/2012 07:50 |
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Sometimes I wish I was a mechanic so I had access to a shop. I have just always had older cars and I have had a ton of luck knowing a bunch of car folks my whole life including my late father.
So there is a way to test your MAF sensor that is pretty easy if you have a multi-meter. My MAF was bad and I just picked one up. The link for testing the MAF is below.
MAF Sensor Link
http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2083673#Post2083673
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mchrisand1
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• Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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• Registered on 12/12/2012 |
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• 9 posts |
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Posted:1/3/2013 13:47 |
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I've learned that my cold start issue is related to something along the fuel line. When it's cold (8 deg this morning) like it always is during January in UT, I turn the key to "ON" and afer about 1-2 minutes I can hear a "whizzing" type sound, or some sort of electric motor type noice for a brief 1-2 seconds and then the balance of my instrument cluster lights become lit up and the car fires immediately. At the recommendation of a friend (who's a pseudo-mechanic in training) he advised it could be condensation in the fuel line or fuel tank (I think someone else suggested that also, it's not the first time I heard that) He said the next logical step (the cheapest and most convenient fix) would be to run a can of sea-foam through the car. I've purchased a can today and will advise on the outcome tmrw. I've been a little lazy at fixing the problem since I know how to get it started 100% of the time, howver, now my battery seems to be wearing out a bit with the bitter cold weather we've had today.
Will keep everyone posted, and thank you for the follow-ups!
Also, I modified that car a little by installing 2 Thrush Turbo mufflers and discarding the tail pipes (I bolted some shiny chrom tips directly over the muffler outlet - it sounds pretty good, deeper sound, not significantly louder since the 4 catylytics are still intact. Doesn't quite sound as good as Flowmaster but at $29/muffler I can't complain.
MichaelC
MichaelC
Phoenix, AZ
"light 'em up"
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Posted:1/3/2013 14:26 |
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+1 on the moisture that can really kill you
The electric motor you hear is the fuel pump priming the lines, if the seafoam doesn't get you working better check the fuel pump relay they can get condensation inside that can cause all sorts of problems and they are super cheap.
With the battery if you have one on the way out our real cold weather will kill one not rated high on cold cranking. How old is the battery? Do you know the cold cranking amps? Usually I like to go 750 CCA for V8's here. |
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mchrisand1
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• Phoenix, AZ, USA |
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• Registered on 12/12/2012 |
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• 9 posts |
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Posted:1/7/2013 10:16 |
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I tried the Seafoam and unfortunately it didn't solve the problem.
CCA are stated to be 850. The battery seems consistently strong but I had it tested and it came back OK, but the guy at O'Reilly said once it drops below 100% it will keep getting worse in this weather. Not sure how old the battery is but I don't think it needs replacing...yet. .
I'll look at the relay next.
Thanks!
MichaelC
Phoenix, AZ
"light 'em up"
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